An interview with Hiroki Matsuura (MADMA Studio)

Interview by Theresa Konova

A liminal site or liminal space in architecture is in its core an experiential space that resides on the threshold of public and private domains, capable of temporarily shifting between these states through user engagement (Bratoeva, C., 2024). The term ‘limen’ originates from the Latin word for ‘threshold’, referring to a point of transition or entry (Zimmerman, P., 2008).

Drawing from the study of cultural rites of passage, liminal space provides an analogy for understanding and designing transformative environments. It represents an intermediate state or condition where antithetical exhibits characteristics of what it is between yet remains distinct and separate from the rest of the environment. It could be defined as a ‘real of pure possibility or potentiality’, in which clarity of definition is ambiguous (Zimmerman, P., 2008).

In this interview with landscape architect and urbanist Hiroki Matsuura, we discussed the topic of liminality and more. We looked at liminality expressed in urban city plans and how landscape architects draw and perceive this. We also discussed the ideas of aesthetics and how liminality can convey the values of beauty, ugliness and even sublimity, as it can often awaken a feeling of uncanniness, mystery and uncertainty, all having both philosophical, as well as artistic qualities. What natural phenomena’s make people so obsessed with the landscape and is it not often the case that these phenomena’s are situated in certain liminality. Furthermore, we discussed understandings of liminality in landscape design from Westen perspective, but also from Japanese culture and tradition and how this translated to design principles and to a story that can be created for each project. Looking from the first classic Renaissance plans to more contemporary project from MADMA studio, me and Hiroki delved into the broad scope of what does it mean to give a meaning, purpose and aesthetical quality of liminality in landscape and urban architecture which people can feel in the designed spaces.

H: First, Theresa, when I read what you have written in the document about liminality, there were a lot of things which are already in common with what we do and also how our company is named even: MADMA. MA means in Japan a ‘space in between’: this is related to claps with hands when you do not hear the sound, that is what we call MA: the void between sound to sound. And that is both sound-wise and time-wise, energy-space-wise. Thus, MA and MA is combined with D in between, which stands for design, define, detect, determine or destroying even. The company has the focus on redesigning everything. The D represents always the action and the MA even the between things ‘in between’.

T: Okay, the D is just the doing then.

H: I also like that it almost sounds like a madman, relating to the fact that my obsession to design is that in a way you are supposed to do things ‘right’, as they should be, but the result is something else, something more than or something strange or something mysterious or something unusual. You see a lot like this happen in art, for example, in movies. And I see the liminality lies there exactly, in this kind of phenomena or in that kind of space where things are unexpectedly transformed into something else or you get strange inspiration out of nothing.Towards a client, we make a very logical, reasonable story. But the result should be always more than that. Something you feel, I mean, strange is not probably the right word, but you feel something unusual as a result. That's what we are kind of searching.

T: Would you say then that like a design or project is not full without claps with hands the space in between the MA’s. As if there is no full design if you don't actually provide a certain liminality. Like, in some of your projects, where your work sits between public and private, nature and city, strict structure versus indefinite form, how do you think about designing those ‘in-between’ thresholds and (why) do you find them important for peoples’ experience?

H: Yeah, there is a methodology how to create such space, and I can explain the steps one by one.

T: The reason for the first question is because in the Netherlands you have a lot of strict forms, but then, for example you have some space or land that will be redeveloped and then you have something very indefinite, what is this going to be? And this it's a full contrast already, very obviously hierarchical and organized architecture in the Netherlands, so how do you perceive this ‘in between’ thresholds?

H: For this question, I need a bit of elaboration, so I prepared something to show you. These are very symbolic historical plans: one made by Nolli and the other one is made by Piranesi, both about Rome.

Figure 1, Giambattista Nolli‘s plan of Rome (1736-1748). (Source: Middleton, 2011)

Figure 2, Map of Rome, 1762. Campus Martius antiquae urbis, by Giovanni Battista Piranesi (1720-1778). (Source: Houghton Library, Harvard University, 2014)

Giambattista Nolli actually measured the situation of Rome at that time, back in 18th century and he made a plan of the entire city (figure 1). This plan consists only of black and white: the private plots and buildings are black, while then the space in between is left as white. This set the tone for still what's in common in urbanism and the ‘Nolli plan’ is still, for example, in Germany, one of the most important plans to make. Black and white is clear to read the structure of the city. What is interesting, is that there is a massive difference between this black and white, apart from just the colour. If you investigate what's happening in black, usually this black is kind of relatively fixed and personal, personalized space because this is where people live: a specific function, such as a library or kindergarten or anything. And then the player who plays in this black area is quite determined. While whatever is happening in this white space, is kind of anonymous space because so many people use it daily. The white space is incomparably larger and undeterminable, in terms of function. This always gave me idea that I'm interested in both black and white, as sometimes I'm focusing on the black field, and then sometimes I'm focusing on the white field. So again, this ‘Nolli plan’ is that it clarifies the things between black and white, based on measurements (figure 1). But there is always the idea of how these two are related. And then the other plan comes in (figure 2). While the plan of Piranesi is very interesting, because first of all this plan is imaginary. And what is remarkable in this plan is that he got rid of the boundary between black and white, so sometimes the white is inside the building and then this is a public space.

T: It seems also like they're very close to each other. Like the public space is no more than just a passage anymore.

H: Yes, so they are not leftover, so both public space and then private space are designed as a whole. This is a visionary plan, as if you look at it theoretically and functionally, the black field is very determined and narrowed down to limited users, while the street is completely open. These two spaces will never be equal, but as a brain exercise, this plan gives a lot of inspiration to urbanists and architects, a classic achievement of the way we think about the city. The plans have less that 2 decades of a difference and provided us with such a solid starting point.

And now I'm going back to this definition of the space in between, let's say, how do we, for example, design public space? How do we design the street? And I have to say there are two issues always comes in. One is that sometimes you need to design something 100% functionally working. For example, if you need to make a road network, it is absolutely function-based, so the reason of having to design such a space is programmed already, without interpretation needed: you just need to fulfil the function properly. Or if you need to make a children playground, if you need to make a little park, functions are kind of given. But that's only one side of the story. And then often the public space designer or landscape designer is only talking about this functional side. Nowadays, functionality in landscape is often about making a biodiverse, circular or sustainable space. Such things are, for me, still functional, engineered function-based story, as if you are talking about road network. And that frustrates me because, the other side of this space in between, has some kind of field of the mysterious actions or mysterious phenomena of the city or the way people live. In this white space, there are so many unpredicted things and ways of thinking or inspiration. Such things I can compare, for example, to Japanese gardening tradition: it has such a spiritual, they hardly talk about function. They are talking about creating space which almost, you know, brings you to another dimension of our world. In some of the projects which we have, we try to achieve that effect because I'm really not interested in to say: ‘This is our great park we designed and this is super sustainable and this is good for the environment and people are very happy.’ Yes, this is always good to achieve, but I feel it is not enough.

T: Yes, so this is not the core of your story.

H: No, because I'm expecting, for a park or garden, even in the middle of the city, you can meet the mystery of nature, or you can also meet a very emotional way looking at the sun or looking at the falling flowers of the cherry, which is something more emotional, more than just a function or just being sustainable. The garden or the park can have responsibility to bring people into this kind of the other dimension of your life. We hardly talk about this in the landscape industry. Mostly, it is looked at just one side of the story. The other side is kind of lacking. So that is the side which we want to emphasize in our work.

T: You mean that a lot of landscape creators struggle to translate the meaning and the feelings that their own designs can convey. So then they wrap it in this sort of foliage with these words that nowadays don't even have much meaning anymore. They're just put there as almost like a ‘must be’, as part of representation. But what is the actual story that these designs are going to tell us and what can this architect tell us of how he feels when he stands there in between these landscape elements of what he tried to create, what feeling does one have?

H: But on the other hand, maybe this is something you don't have to explain. People have to feel when they stand. Universally speaking, people are chasing for this kind of a ‘nature drug’. For example, in Japan, when the cherries start blossoming people gather, when the maple leaves turn red, people go into mountain, and these are also reasons for people to plant flowers in their garden. This illustrates very well how the human being is designed to be. We are probably the only animals among all praising such a phenomenon. I know the monkeys can go to hot springs and then enjoy the hot water, but I don't think they're going to mountain during autumn to enjoy watching red leaves of maples. But we do a lot. And I believe this is one of the strong characters of a human being about obsession to this kind of sensational experience. When people gather around the cherry trees and start drinking and singing, we call it ‘hanami’ in Japan, meaning ‘flower viewing’. Can you imagine why you do that? Not because they want to feel sustainability, it's nothing to do with that, it's more like obsession towards some sort of natural phenomena. That is very important for human being to have with you. And people go to nature because nature is the easiest way how you get certain level of sensation. Every day, we are searching for this kind of sensation, that's why we plant, put indoor plants in the room, etc. I feel this is one of the devices to make our life kind of rich and gives more depth to our life and that's why it's so important. But this is not taken so seriously nowadays when we talk about landscape. So that's something I kind of want to bring in more consciously and try to promote to the clients whether they can get along with such idea. But I must say so far, looking at the last 10 years, surprisingly, that a lot of clients are getting along with it. So when I try to promote something, they understand why, and then they were like, and when they see the result, they are not sure why, but they feel great. After all, fulfilling the functionality and the sustainability is just one bit of the whole goal, I want to have more: some kind of experience, some sort of sensation, even traumatic experience. I would be very glad if the kids start crying when they come to our garden because they feel something and that's a very beautiful thing. So that's what we kind of keep trying in every project.

T: The crying doesn't have to be out of trauma, it could be just overwhelming... it can also be overwhelming of happiness, right? Actually, crying can be very nice because you're releasing emotional load. So I think the design is successful if it takes you to that emotional point, probably.

This is also what I am interested in, that the liminality of the spaces is not so much about the composition of its function, but a part of a fuller picture, influenced by external factors: time of the day it and other components that define it. It is known that ‘liminality can be a social or cognitive in-between phase, a moment at which you're not at your destiny, a time during which you move from the known to what is unknown, a space between past and future’. And they're like numerous layers. First is that you lose sometimes, like the feeling of time. A transition not only in space, but also in time. Second, is that depending on the weather and moment of the day, you can feel more in danger to go through a tunnel or a corridor, for example, as not being sure how to exit and maybe not knowing even how you entered anymore. Many liminal spaces evolve through overlapping layers: How do you design for these shifts so a place can adapt to different moments and meanings?

H: Indeed, that can occur in a lot of spaces, especially the ones made by human. But the thing about our profession, is sometimes we get a certain plot and then we need to design something. So there's a practicality of this issue. How do you create such a space in newly designed space? Because liminality can easily happen in the leftover part, which is not controlled by anyone, but if you try to make something and then it is not that instant to create such a space, especially a newly designed square or park, because everything is kind of under control.

There is a practical approach we use to increase this dynamism of the space. I call it this the ‘revolving highlights’. If we use diverse species of the trees and shrubs and then ground cover, for instance, what is going to happen is, is that each species has different highlights per year. Some are very strong in springtime, some are shouting in summertime, some in autumn, even some species are super shouting only in wintertime, for example. So throughout the year, there is a different peak of highlights happening in different locations of the one project. And the simplest way to do this is to use diverse species, but strategically. What we usually do is we make a very detailed chart of the behaviour of each species per year, so you see the color changes throughout the whole year, and we try to avoid as much as possible to place two different species that behave similar. A good example is that if you have one type of cherry tree, which is blossoming in April (Prunus yodonsis/Japanese Yoshino tree), but a couple of weeks after, you have Magnolia, which is flowering in a very similar color. And if there is a big chance they overlap, then I would never put them close to each other because it kills each other’s effect. When we are placing all these diverse species, we try to analyze very carefully their behavior and presence. If you do this very carefully for the entire space, the effect gets optimized.

T: Would you say that then they define a different liminality in the whole design, so that liminality is moved from one point to the other throughout the design plan.

H: Yes and in the Netherlands, I see often, unfortunately, an unpleasant example, and this is my personal opinion, so don't take it as a general opinion. The amurensis tree is very common and very popular in the Netherlands, which have small white flowers in springtime, and they have fire-red, beautiful leaves in autumn. One of the strengths of this tree is that they have incredibly beautiful shape of the trunks. Unfortunately, what I see often in the Netherlands is that amurensis is used often to make hedges. What is happening is that they put them next to each other to make a line. In front of Euromast, in Rotterdam, is a line of amurensis shrubs and I'm always very disappointed becauseamurensis becomes the most beautiful shape when you have nothing around. When it is standing alone, then you see the beauty of this tree. But often I see they are grouped and I think it is a pity. It's better to mix with others and then let them be solitary, kind of solo singer instead of a group singer.

T: So sort of the vegetational hierarchy that we built is very important for personal, like the perceptions and feelings, but also aesthetic satisfaction, so to say.

H: Exactly. So this is a question whether the designer had already thought about that or not. I see often that they are not really thinking about the species, because if you know how these trees behave, then you will never put it in this way, because there's a better stage to put it on. And so that's the thing for which in MADMA, are also very conscious.

Apart from that, we also focus a lot on lighting of the space. For instance, one of the projects in Kyiv we have, was extremely successful. What we did is that we made 10 boxes of planters in the main square of the city and each box has the special recipe of the species of the trees, shrubs and ground cover. And then as a whole of these 10 boxes together, it has a diversity of the effect and then climaxes and what we also did is we made a different recipe per box for the lighting color. So I'm talking about lighting temperature, so Kelvin color. Because for some species, when you see beautiful white flower, you don't want to shed the light which is too warm, because then this whiteness becomes a little yellowish, and then it becomes kind of ordinary. While if you project light which is very blue, then the whiteness stands out like toothpaste. In autumn, when the maple has red and orange leaves, then you better not shed the light which is white, better to give a very warm light, then its colors get accentuated. And all of this is all about amplifying the special effect. Seasonal change is automatic, but sometimes we do even artificial setups such as the lighting.

Figure 3, UNIT project at night, Kyiv, MADMA studio. (Source: MADMA urbanism+landscape, n.d.)

Figure 4, UNIT project concept, Kyiv, MADMA studio. (Source: MADMA urbanism+landscape, n.d.)

Figure 5, UNIT project top view visualisation, Kyiv, MADMA studio. (Source: MADMA urbanism+landscape, n.d.)

T: It is so interesting to consider so much, like the color scheme and scale, because nuances are just a concept, right? Because everything depends on the type of light, as we only see colors as reflected by the light we see, and it's in that sense it's like a non-existing concept in a way, so it is very special in landscape design that you even think of the color scale and how the scale changes and then the color become warm or cold because you change the light and we perceive it as a different color.

H: We are just very obsessed for a certain, almost a theatrical effect. You know this famous park in Paris, this Parc La Villette? There, they have these famous red foley standing pavilions. I was really impressed when I was there first time in the 90s from the lighting during the nighttime. They shed a red light onto the red pavilion, that's why it stand out as gross in the park. But I know if you project a normal light on the red object, you don't get the same effect. We care a lot about this kind of very detailed choice of certain elements which turned into a very long answer of how we deal with this day/night changes in liminality.

T: As we were talking about the Kiev project, maybe we can connect it to the 4th question, which is how do cultural attitudes toward public and private space shape the way you create liminal experiences?

H: We indeed work in very different contexts because some contexts, for example, now we work in Iraq, in Baghdad. And also we work in Saudi Arabia, but none of them are on website yet because these are still confidential. And we've been working a lot in Ukraine and Russia. Then I often get the question how do we deal with this kind of different context and then I always answer that there are two aspects to look into it: one is that because most of our clients are homo sapiens, there is so much in common, no matter how you and where you live. Although we never worked in Alaska or we never worked in that sort of extreme case, but we worked even in Siberia and even there, everybody reacts almost in the same way. One example is there is nobody who hates cherry blossom. And nobody said the red color of the maple in autumn is so ugly.

T: Because maybe we have reached a similar satisfaction level and ways for these desires to be answered and we are satisfied on a physiological level.

H: Maybe even in a similar biological and DNA level. That's one side and it has nothing in common where you are. And the other side is totally opposite of this: a total locality. So designing, for example, garden in Japan or designing garden in Siberia or in Africa, there is, of course, different cultural backdrop, as well as material backdrop. But what is striking is that material-wise, things are getting increasingly global. Because we are exporting, importing a lot of stuff, there's no place, in which you cannot use metal or you cannot use cement. I have to refer to this project in Kyiv, as a lot of architects know that there are some countries in the world with extremely high level of the detailing and craftsmanship, like in Europe, for example, Switzerland, and in Asia, Japan is probably the highest. But I realized there is a very high skill of the craftsmanship in Ukraine, which nobody really knew because if you walk in the city of Kyiv, nowadays, all the public space is in a very bad state because the city is not putting enough budget to maintain. And then if you look at the new public space, usually the level of the detail is not good. But I really found out at the end, they have an extremely high skill, if you look into the level of the craftsman himself. Their problem of the bad ending is because of more about organization and supervision. But if you give them very good field to show their skill, they do extremely high level of the detail, which you can hardly expect to do in Western Europe, for example. So for this project in Kyiv, I give extremely demanding detail to see whether they can handle or not and they really surprised me because they made it perfect. This kind of skill of the hands of the craftsman, is also a contextual difference apart from a cultural difference. And this is also influencing our decision making for customizing project principles for certain locations.We are just balancing these two factors.

T: I get, in synopsis, from what you've been saying, that the biological predispositions for satisfaction, aesthetics, even sometimes choice of placement is like similar, but wouldn't you say there is a difference if you look at the liminal space and we say, oh, this is a space between the forest and the town in Siberia, for example, they will use this road to transport maybe the woods from the forest or they will also know how to guide themselves on this road so that they do not get lost in the forest, which are all aspects that you don't have to deal with in the Netherlands because forests, for example, here are so artificially made that you just would never go towards it with the thought of, I might get lost and die because I cannot find my way out. But in Siberia, I think people will know that such liminal space is something in which they can think of how they are going to continue towards. So that's what I meant with like, cultural differences, but also out of practicality and out of years of living in this environment that you're used to, so epistemologically how you know to deal with in your environment.

H: But this kind of a functional adjustment towards the specific locality is relatively simple thing. For example, some country has a lot of snow, so they have to have a 1 meter extra on both sides of the road to wipe out the snow and so that's why you have to make extra 1 meter of offset of the street, period. This is just a simple functional issue. In that respect, working in different contexts is not an impossible work, rather inspirational, because you can see things from different angle.

T: When you have very dynamic spaces with some much factors to consider, how do you think of a design that is flexible and adaptable to unpredictable change?

H: This is actually a very important question, the answer of which is almost like the motto of our design, which I didn't explain yet. My dream is creating something which looks like it was there before we did anything, like we leave our fingerprints away. So at the end, the space is made, the phenomena is there, people are there, but you don't see who made this. It was always there. A certain anonymity and also something that looks so fundamental that it was not intentionally made, but it is there because it is supposed to be there. One thing I'm always careful is that we shouldn't reflect too much of the sign of the time. Be very careful because the ‘freshness’, trend of the design, is very fragile and it doesn't last so long. After a few years, whatever you think it's cool, it's not cool. So we're kind of trying to not to over-design things, that's one thing, and then also not to try to define everything according to what we think. Because I think I'm telling a lot about what I think today, but at the same time, I'm really not trusting myself. Because even myself, tomorrow is quite different from me today. And next year, for sure, it's so unreliable. In that case, the way how to avoid this kind of subjectivity of the decision making is to try to find the facts as much as we can. So it is similar to what you call this ‘conditional design’ approach, means you're not designing by your hand, but you let conditions, design the situations and conditions determine what should happen. Not because you think, but objectively what it is, facts.

For example, the Kyiv project, when I explained this concept to the clients, I never talked about design itself. I started with why such a space has to be made in this particular location. More like program planning wise. And then made it look as if the final design of the square, is a result of the combining of all the factors and then backdrop, which makes it look reasonable to be done in this way, as if I was not there. I was just hosting the kind of debate of the facts. Almost like starting the path, but not really guiding through it. Ios not me, it's not us. It's just because this place has this situation and this looks like it makes sense, so let's do it like this. That's also the way how we try to be not subjective onto things, but rather very objective. But at the same time, as I told you before, my goal is that you are putting all the right things to do and all the facts-based things, but as a result, you see something very mysterious. That's a beautiful goal we try to make. Of course, there is some hidden intentions behind, but I can't say it loud. And then I try to let the project done in very objective ways. Still, I have always in the back of my head that the result should be unusual or awkward, weird or mysterious: that's all complement for me. And then if this space can make you cry, I feel the biggest reward.

T: I have to come back to a thing you said. You said you do not design for modernity, but don't you think you leave an imprint by assuming and seeing what feelings people get because you want it in this way, you aim for us to be aesthetically satisfied and you aim for us to reach maybe some even cathartical feeling of because of how you placed the elements, that might not necessarily happen other way.

H: We set a group of conditions as, especially in landscape projects, elements are totally depending on the growth of the vegetation, for example. Comparing to architecture, landscape design has much bigger dependency to the things which you cannot control. That's the beauty of it. That's what I like about it. That's kind of a nuance of what we are trying to achieve.

T: What do you think liminal places will be in the future urban landscapes, especially if they have, for example, more density or more climate challenges? Would we maybe also provide more practical functions even to luminal spaces, for example something that can mitigate heat stress, like ventilation corridors...

H: I don't put this as a main goal of the project, but I always think that it's very nice to have that in the project. So of course, we were thinking about that always in every project, but one thing I know is that, in a way, if you turn grey, I mean, metaphorically, if you turn gray into green for environment, it's almost always correct in terms of the urban temperature, in terms of biodiversity, in terms of harvesting the rainwater. If you get rid of the paving and concrete and then replace it with greenery, this is always positive, right? So this is actually really not rocket science itself. And also about the lowering temperature of the city, of course, it's good to have some trees and then water nearby and then wind comes in and these are just like ancient wisdom. And of course if we put a lot of diverse vegetation that is great for the biodiversity. But we know that if you do the project in such a way, this is coming as a bonus anyway. Definitely I'm not thinking those are not unimportant things, I would call it this ‘of course’ thing. This is so obvious that it doesn't excite me actually. It is fundamental, but I don't characterize my design of it.

We believe this kind of liminal space or the space in between or public space, has a potential to expand our imagination, the inspirational or the ambiguity of your life thinking, in a way, all kind of richness which relates to what I said at the very beginning about why people are going to see the cherry blossom, why people are going to see red leaves in autumn, because of the sensational quality we have as species.

And especially as the last few years of the development of AI made us kind of clear description of what is the character of the human being, which has very irrational, irregular, liminal way of thinking, happening in our brain. And those are not exactly the things which AI is good at. When you have a very specific task or problem to solve, they're probably far better than us in most of these cases, because they are not driven by emotion or they are not driven by their mood. They're just looking into the facts straight to and then try to find a solution for that.

T: So, in a way, we as a human beings, grow from irregularity and liminality and similar problems can have different solutions, while in AI similar problems will have similar solutions.

H: Now there's no doubt that we're going to collaborate with AI more and more to take our world further. I want to make our space as an accelerator of such these special abilities of the human being. Also, more concentration of the people in the city means people are getting away from the nature where you get such feelings. That's why, especially in the dense urban environment, it is quite important that there is a space, in which you can liberate your mind somehow. So that's why this ‘sensation maker’ is great to have in the middle of the city or in the liminal space that you define. And that is also what we aim in our projects.

References

Bratoeva, C. (2024). Liminal sites : designing marginal space in Broadmeadows. Figshare.

https://doi.org/10.25439/rmt.27351237

Houghton Library, Harvard University. (2014, December 5). Piranesi, map of Rome [Map]. Wikimedia Commons. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Houghton_63-368_-_Piranesi,_map_of_Rome.jpg

MADMA urbanism+landscape. (n.d.). UNIT.City Main Plaza. https://www.madma.nl/projects/unitcity_main_plaza/

Middleton, N. (2011, September 18). Nolli’s plan of Rome. neilmiddleton_rationalist_traces. https://neilmiddletonrationalisttraces.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/nolli-plan-of-rome/

Zimmerman, P. (2008). Liminal Space in Architecture: Threshold and Transition. Masters Theses.

https://trace.tennessee.edu/utk_gradthes/453/